AFP/Yahoo News @:
news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2008...kONRo3POrgF
BEIJING (AFP) - An almost complete human skull dating back 80,000 to 100,000 years has been unearthed in central China, state media reported Wednesday.
The skull, consisting of 16 pieces, was dug up last month after two years of excavation at a site in Xuchang in Henan province, the China Daily said.
The pieces were fossilised because they were buried near the mouth of a spring whose water had a high calcium content, the report said.
The People's Daily newspaper said the skull was expected to provide "direct evidence" concerning the origins of human beings in east Asia, as very few human fossils dating back to about 100,000 years ago had ever been found outside Africa.
The China Daily said that the skull, with protruding bones over the eye sockets and a small forehead, was "the greatest discovery in China after the Peking Man and Upper Cave Man skulls were found in Beijing early last century".
However, experts contacted by AFP said the importance of the discovery appeared to be over-stated in the reports.
"It is far from the greatest judging from points such as the completeness, the time, and the significance of problems it can explain," said Wu Xinzhi, a professor and academician at the Chinese Academy of Sciences.
"So far, it just can prove that there were human beings living in Henan about 80,000 to 100,000 years ago and the shape of their heads was roughly what the skull shows."
Besides the skull, more than 30,000 animal fossils and stone and bone artifacts were found over the past two years in an area of 260 square metres (2,800 square feet), the report said.
The oldest human fossil found in China so far was a tooth unearthed in 1965 in Yuanmou county in the southwestern province of Yunnan that dated back 1.7 million years, said Wu.
*Editors Note: 1.7 Million Years; thats a long time...
Who fills in the gap between the so called "Lucy" and the first universally agreed upon "first" civilization, the Sumerians of Mesopotamia?
and why is the first civilization on mankind-a pretty important role in history- a word that registers in my Mac's dictionary?
Crossing the red line here...
news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2008...kONRo3POrgF
BEIJING (AFP) - An almost complete human skull dating back 80,000 to 100,000 years has been unearthed in central China, state media reported Wednesday.
The skull, consisting of 16 pieces, was dug up last month after two years of excavation at a site in Xuchang in Henan province, the China Daily said.
The pieces were fossilised because they were buried near the mouth of a spring whose water had a high calcium content, the report said.
The People's Daily newspaper said the skull was expected to provide "direct evidence" concerning the origins of human beings in east Asia, as very few human fossils dating back to about 100,000 years ago had ever been found outside Africa.
The China Daily said that the skull, with protruding bones over the eye sockets and a small forehead, was "the greatest discovery in China after the Peking Man and Upper Cave Man skulls were found in Beijing early last century".
However, experts contacted by AFP said the importance of the discovery appeared to be over-stated in the reports.
"It is far from the greatest judging from points such as the completeness, the time, and the significance of problems it can explain," said Wu Xinzhi, a professor and academician at the Chinese Academy of Sciences.
"So far, it just can prove that there were human beings living in Henan about 80,000 to 100,000 years ago and the shape of their heads was roughly what the skull shows."
Besides the skull, more than 30,000 animal fossils and stone and bone artifacts were found over the past two years in an area of 260 square metres (2,800 square feet), the report said.
The oldest human fossil found in China so far was a tooth unearthed in 1965 in Yuanmou county in the southwestern province of Yunnan that dated back 1.7 million years, said Wu.
*Editors Note: 1.7 Million Years; thats a long time...
Who fills in the gap between the so called "Lucy" and the first universally agreed upon "first" civilization, the Sumerians of Mesopotamia?
and why is the first civilization on mankind-a pretty important role in history- a word that registers in my Mac's dictionary?
Crossing the red line here...
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 9:39 PMThats a cool find. Every peice helps. There is so many large gaps in human evolution its stunning.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 8:11 AM>Editors Note: 1.7 Million Years; thats a long time...
Who fills in the gap between the so called "Lucy" and the first universally agreed upon "first" civilization
Time and space do not permit an extensive answer here, but if you pick up an introductory text in archaeology, say *Patterns in Prehistory* or *The human past* you will find that humanity was busy all over the world prior to the emergence of Mesopotamia; the colonization of the Americas, Australia and the western Pacific, the coexistence of Neanderthals and modern humans in Europe and SW Asia, an endless list of things really. Everywhere we go, we've left some sort of signature and this evidence amply fills the time between Lucy and the Sumerians.
Thanks for the cool news post! -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:06 AMYour perfectly welcome, thank YOU for responding... Now, would I be correct in my assumption that what we are talking about here, is nothing more than weather or not we,"modern man" evolved naturally on earth, as opposed to the theory I was promoting... which was, that perhaps all the missing angles of perspective in the human history code point to an OUTSIDE SOURCE! Like the game telephone...if you want to get back to the root of the story, you MUST go back to the first credible/tangible evidence of an echo. Mesopotamia, the fertile crescent, and sumerians themselves, explicitly tell the creation story of man.(period emphasized) Yes, we lived alongside Neanderthals in prehistory. They were the Rephaim of the old testament. Moses even quotes to us how many were living at the time..."409,000 Giants"
And what amazes me, is that in the here and now, this information is lost through the "modern" filter of perception. Read any of zacharia stichen's work and lets talk again... -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:23 AM>zacharia stichen's work and lets talk again...
No thank you. I'll stick to parsimony. Perhaps you would read what I recommend and we'll talk again ;] -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:46 AMTank you for the info... "Parsimony" is defined as a 'less is better' concept of frugality, economy, stinginess or caution in arriving at a hypothesis or course of action. The word derives from Middle English parcimony, from Latin parsimonia, from parsus, past participle of parcere: to spare. Good one, I love it!
Did/do you attend schooling for such a topic as we are discussing? For if so, is it not historically true that IS the "outside the norm" thought processes that actually serve to EXPAND the total human awareness of the topic at hand?Do you believe humans did not "discover" that the world was, in fact, round until what, "Aristotle (384-322 BC) said that it was common knowledge, at least among the learned, so it's been known for at least 2,500 years."
Note: 2,500 years is NOT a long time when compared to the cylinder seals of sumer and the depiction's found there... Let us bridge the gap of speculation. Have yourself a look at: xfacts.com/ancient/index.html
for as they say, a picture tells a thousand words...
What say you? -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 11:03 AM>is it not historically true that IS the "outside the norm" thought processes that actually serve to EXPAND the total human awareness of the topic at hand?Do you believe humans did not "discover" that the world was, in fact, round until what, "Aristotle (384-322 BC) said that it was common knowledge, at least among the learned, so it's been known for at least 2,500 years."
Sure, outside the norm ideas expand human awareness; as such ideas are still observable in the real world (for the most part). Copernicus expanded our understanding of the solar system by *observing* that the earth revolved around the sun, in opposition to the Biblical *belief* that the earth was the center of creation. Darwin expanded our understanding of how life evolved by *observing* that environmental conditions constrain the frequency of particular biological traits, leading to changes in organisms.
As to your point about the earth being round; the earth has always been spherical well before there were people. Our *beliefs* changed with observation, not the shape of the earth itself.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the cylinder seals, yes, they exist. But they are not evidence that people come from aliens. They are evidence of a complex economic system. -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 1:17 PMHaa... *belief* {I love it!} >... as such ideas are still observable in the real world <
Can you READ the Cilinder Seals? Know anyone who can? Who are the EXPERTS in the "field", so to speak? Your guess is as good as mine, alls im sayin' is that they ~DO TELL OUR CREATION STORY~ Who is looking into the EVIDENCE of CONSCIOUSNESS? The evidence is found as arti*FACT timecapsules from antiquity. They are written in stone. Never alterd. How many times BEFORE the "king James Verson", was the Bible updated?I'd venture to say at least a dozen. Look it up for yourself.
No matter how you slice it, the soil in which the seeds of humanity were planted, was the fertile crescent. What we term "Civilization"- the people who lived there, whatever their world-view, built a map in stone for us to ponder...it is discussions like this I enjoy so much because it is their intention:> To Wonder! -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 1:30 PMThere are lots of scholars who can read the cylinder seals. Their guess is better than yours.
www.answers.com/topic/cylinder-seal -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 5:01 PMWhoa there girly,.. howzbout ~ "OURS"? Jeez, no need for judgment now... Name one "Scholar" who you trust, and tell me what he/she says about the creation story found there...THEN u can pass your own judgment on my beliefs, till then, take a back seat and watch it all go by... -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 5:19 PMPerhaps I should have posted this thread in Anthropology... my apologies, of course. -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 6:04 AMI think I catch a hint of Patchouli in the air, and the tinkling of crystals.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 7:47 AMI'm not questioning your beliefs sweetums. Believe what you want. But if you believe so fervently, why do you need proof from the real world?
And if I choose not to believe with you, that's my right. Also, since this is a forum about archaeology, not religion, you should expect that if you present a controversial notion about aliens, the Bible and creationism, you will get some resistance. If you don't care for thoughtful disagreement, don't post.
Don't tell me when I can or cannot pass judgment on your beliefs.
Peace,
MM -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 1:04 PMJahvan,
The thing with Zecharia Sitchin (whom I have met personally...a fascinating little chap to say the least...) is that although the basic thrust of his information really is compelling, his scholarship leaves alot to be desired. I find his cross cultural comparisons of "Old" and "New" World religious myth and iconography to be very compelling. The problems academics have with him is that he doesn't conform to their (understandably) rigid norms of citing references, nor are his translations of Sumerian universally accepted.
And no, I don't read Sumerian. Do you? Until either of us can, neither you nor myself, nor anyone of his readers can truly say whether the ancient Sumerians really believed that they (read: "we") were created as a genetic compromise between CroMags and Annunaki. Nor can we be 100% sure of that they were describing rocket ships or merely war towers, spaceships or shields, Gods or Aliens, etc.,
What would really seal the deal for me would be for scholars who CAN read Sumerian (Akkadian, Assyrian, Hebrew, etc.,) to independently validate his translations. Don't get me wrong...I WANT to believe that history is far more dramatic and fascinating than mere evolution (which, to be fair, I find fascinating in and of itself!) would lead us to believe. I feel like we are missing something, for sure. Not because we're stupid (I have massive respect for archaeology, as MM already knows...), but because we either refuse to even entertain the notion that we are much older than we believe, or because so far, all traces of possible pre-Sumerian civilizations have been obliterated by say, a massive, Earth-wide catastrophe such as a meteor strike (and it's after effects, either local or global) or a sudden sea level rise.
Jahvan, I have a question for you. One I've often asked myself for a very, very long time. It is this: Why does it matter so much to you that our current view of history might be thoroughly flawed, and that other, older civilizations may have, in point of fact, been the real forebears of the civilizations we do know about? Obviously, there's no right or wrong answer. I just think it's an interesting question...
And MM, good to "see" you around! It has been awhile since we last posted about that guy in the Balkans and his "pyramid" amusement park. Do you remember that?
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 4:44 PMHi Yoshi - Yes, it has been awhile, nice to "see you" too. I miss the good old days over on Ancient Egypt sometimes. Whatever we're talking about here reminds me of Chaz and his rambling discourse on aliens, the pyramids and Africa in general. Sort of. To the extent that this alien thing means anything to me.
MM -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 6:52 PMAhh yes, its good to "See" all of you here! I love this particular debate! First of all, thank you all for participating, and for the authors and info, thank you... for IT IS discussions like this that "make the word go 'round" as we have it, figuratively, of course, because I must remind myself that when we talk, or type, of these things, it stears up not only personal beliefs, but also, from an academic perspective; it loosens the already patchy surface of what the accepted "data" shows us. Yes, many gaps to fill in here, and no, I don't claim read Sumarian, and I can admit that a lot of my views on the origins of mankind, for that IS what we are discussing, are biased, because they are based on FEELING. I feel like the "Ancient Astronaught " theory is in fact, not only FEASIBLE, BUT TANGIBLE! I want to find out where we came from, to gain perspective on where we are Going, evolutionarily as a species. Has anyony here studied Linguistics?
I'm working on a book by John Philip Cohane called THE KEY, amazing connections from cultures around the word. Tangible evidence of the thriving "Pre Culture" Mr. Yoshi spoke of. The connections are everywhere, it is a WORLDWIDE phenomena... From tribal traditions, to the type of architecture that culture was inclined to utilize... another book I highly recommend is a book by Graham Hancock, called HEAVENS MIRROR, as well as any book by Paul Deveux, one of his is EARTH ENERGY...
Anyway, who built the ruins at Baalbek?
>From World Mysteries.com "Some archaeologists might well wish that Baalbek had been buried forever. For it is here that we find the largest dressed stone block in the world - the infamous Stone of the South, just ten minutes walk from the temple acropolis. This huge stone weighs approximately 1,000 tons"
~PCE~
&
Moce'
*Jahvan -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 10:56 AMDo you really think you will find the answers to the "where we came from" reading these books? Get use to disappointment.
<"Some archaeologists might well wish that Baalbek had been buried forever. For it is here that we find the largest dressed stone block in the world - the infamous Stone of the South, just ten minutes walk from the temple acropolis. This huge stone weighs approximately 1,000 tons" >
You know I can't seem to find who wishes it were not found.......sure is a lot of published research. And from what I have read, they are still cataloging artifacts found in the 1960’s. (Sounds like a lot of work for people not interested in the truth. They have not even finished mapping the site.)....so they may not have an answer as sexy as spacemen but they sure didn't jump to a conclusion, no they just keep digging. And I’m not sure if you have ever noticed but Archeology is not very well funded. And the work takes a long time and is very tedious, so it’s probably not the place to look for quick answers.
Now I have a question. Have you ever heard of the woo woo credo? Here ya go
1.Never look for the simplest, most obvious cause of something. Refrain from mentioning Occam's Razor (it's your nemesis).
2 Always favor the conspiracy angle over the boring angle. Mundane explanations (like saying that Roswell was a balloon) are for dullards and government drones. If you want to sleep with that curvaceous new-age chick, don't tell her you think astrology is bogus! (Non woo-woos may benefit from that advice temporarily).
3 Don't accept mainstream science unless it's something you've believed in for years (like gravity).
4 Try to answer as few direct questions as possible. Always obfuscate and try to sound learned. Mimic Richard Hoagland's style and you'll go far.
5 Use "what if" scenarios to change the subject whenever possible. If you linger on one topic too long you may be asked to provide annoying things like "proof." Don't let that happen! Consult a creationist if you need practice with subject-changing.
6 If you're cornered and asked for proof of something, always tell the person that they "can't disprove" your claims. Many of them will just walk away shaking their heads, which of course means they agree with you. A side-to-side head shake could be the same as a vertical nod. Anything is possible, after all.
7 Memorize all the sci-babble terms used in the Star Trek series. They are very useful if you get cornered by a skeptic, and you need to come up with some sort of "scientific" explanation. e.g., Inertial Dampers.
8 When all else fails, start asking hypothetical questions that have nothing to do with the actual debate. If your opponent chooses to ignore your pointless questions and remains on topic, repeat your meaningless question(s) over and over. This will make any Believers in the audience think that your opponent is evading the issue.
9 Accuse your opponent of being a liar, or try some other tactic that will (hopefully) make him angry. If he responds in kind to your endless taunts, change the subject to his anger, and accuse him of name calling. If he accuses you of provoking him, then you have changed the subject of the debate. If he stays on topic, keep the heat up. The Believers in the audience will forgive the worst verbal attacks you use, but they will think even the mildest replies he makes to you are personal attacks that undermine his argument.
10 Use the word quantum in a sentence, despite not knowing what it means. For a more impressive effect, use it with the name of your favorite superstition - "quantum dowsing" sure sounds mighty serious.
11 Two more words: Paradigm shift.
12 Always claim that the other guy is "closed-minded" and that you're as free-thinking as a newborn baby. Other woo-woos love the concept of "open-mindedness" and will take you into their inner circle without question. They have no tolerance for those "mean old nasty" types who demand evidence for everything.
13 Drink heavily while posting.
14 You must believe that the word "anomaly" means proof of paranormal activity.
15 Use the word "anomaly" as often as possible.
16 When your position appears hopeless, your entire audience is laughing at you, and you've lost all credibility (and perhaps even won a Kook of the Month) threaten everyone within proximity with a lawsuit. You don't need to actually prepare a lawsuit, just make the threat. That will let them know you're a serious person.
17 Go make your own newsgroup with a group charter drawn up to keep out anyone who doesn't agree with your view of the world. Occasionally crosspost to other newsgroups from that one, then complain when people answer your posts, complain to their system admistrators that they're abusing the terms of your newsgroup and demand their accounts be yanked for abusive spamming. Respond to each answering message with a duplicate.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 12:06 PM>Now I have a question. Have you ever heard of the woo woo credo? Here ya go
Thanks for this! I'm going to squirrel it away for future reference. Perfect summary of "woo woo" tactics. I would add one aspect could be discussed under point # 2; Anything controversial written by a non-specialist is automatically preferred over the conventional wisdom of the discipline. Witness Graham Hancock whose many forays into archaeology include the notion that the Pyramids at Giza were aligned to the Stars in Orion's belt, apparently for contacting the aliens or something....
"Often criticised for being a pseudoarchaeologist, Hancock, who freely admits he has no formal training in archaeology, sees himself as providing a counterbalance to what he perceives as the 'unquestioned' acceptance and support given to orthodox views by the education system, the media, and by society at large.[1]" (Wikipedia entry on Graham Hancock).
For the record, archaeologists do *not* unquestionably accept conventional wisdom. In fact, we are a competitive and skeptical bunch, reading each other's work primarily with an eye toward questioning the conclusions of our peers. Conventional wisdom only arises through consensus after we begrudgingly agree that our colleague is onto something and that explanation presented is the most parsimonious given the data (i.e. the invocation of Occam's Razor).
I'm always amazed when people dismiss scholarly credentials in favor of woo woo when it comes to archaeology. If you needed your tooth pulled, would you seek help from someone who "freely admits to having no training in dentistry?" -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 1:22 PMI'm always amazed when people dismiss scholarly credentials in favor of woo woo when it comes to archaeology.>
Actually I find it is that way in every field. Quick fun answers are always better then dull ol’ academia.
Most of the authors of the pseudo science books are very entertaining writers. The books take little or no concentration to read through in a couple of hours. They appeal to peoples wanting to know but not wanting to study.
MissMini your welcome for the woo woo credo
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 1:33 PM<"That needed to be said. I guess I'm attempting to keep this discourse friendlier than others I've been embroiled in">
I agree, there is no call for bashing another’s ideas or feelings, at least not in a demeaning way. I do think good-natured ribbing should be expected.
And you know I will jump on the bandwagon yelling “I always knew it” when the mother ship arrives.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 1:07 PM"Can you READ the Cilinder Seals? Know anyone who can? Who are the EXPERTS in the "field", so to speak?"
Actually you can read them for your self. Just get your self a copy of "Sumerian Lexicon" and go to town, Why you can even check Zacharia Stichen's translations (they are a bit flawed) But you should really check them yourself.
Besides Stichens work what other Sumerian works have you studied? I'll give you a reading list and you can read up and we can continue.
J.L. Hayes, A Manual of Sumerian Grammar and Texts
E.I. Gordon, Sumerian Proverbs: Glimpses of Everyday Life in Ancient Mesopotamia
P. Michalowski, The Lamentation over the Destruction of Sumer and Ur
B. Alster, Proverbs of Ancient Sumer: The World's Earliest Proverb Collections
M. Civil, The Farmer's Instructions: A Sumerian Agricultural Manual (My personal favorite)
M.L. Thomsen, The Sumerian Language: An Introduction to Its History and Grammatical Structure
And no I'm no expert on Sumer just an avid reader.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 1:06 PM<<Witness Graham Hancock whose many forays into archaeology include the notion that the Pyramids at Giza were aligned to the Stars in Orion's belt, apparently for contacting the aliens or something....>>
Just for the record, MM (and not that it will sway you to his cause, of course), Hancock's notion about Giza has nothing to do with aliens. The main thrust of his research is to imply that ancient "high" civilizations had knowledge of the precession of the equinoxes (is that plural for "equinox"? or do I just fake it and write, the "equinoctial cycle", to go along with C's "woo woo credo" (which, by the way, I am still chuckling at...thanks C!)). He thinks that, built into the layout at Giza (and other megalithic structures) is a message that commemorates a certain epoch (around 10,500 BCE). Allegedly (because some of his measurements turn out to be less precise than he claims...), not only do the stars of Orion's belt match the tips of the 3 large pyramids at Giza, but some of the shafts in the "King" and "Queen"'s chambers in Khufu's pyramid point directly to other stars in the constellation of Orion, but, due to the precessional spin, as the stars appeared way back in the time being commemorated (10,500 BCE). Additionally, he goes to other sites around the globe, built in different epochs by different cultures (Angkor Wat comes to mind), and finds ground/sky correlations ALSO harkening back to that distant time...Again: Interesting, but not a slam dunk by any means.
The above is not really a defense of Hancock's theories so much as a humble attempt to keep him from being lumped in with...say...Erick von Danniken, whose theories are interesting, but whose research and citations are...what's the word? Oh yes..."non-existent". Hancock may still be wrong (and he has admitted as much in his own writings and documentaries), but I really do get the sense that he believes in what he's writing and isn't merely trying to get rich. If you take the time to read his research, he does shave with Occam's Razor for the most part, and his theories (even if wrong) are far more thoroughly flushed out and are in fact better reasoned than the "crystal skull/Pleidean Dolphins are gonna save us" bunch with whom he generally gets categorized.
And C., thanks for spelling out the frustrations of archaeologists vis-a-vis funding (and if you wanna feel better about it, go the JPL Open House in Pasadena if you ever get a chance...you will never see more depressed project scientists with big dreams and no money to make them happen...ugh!), as well as your statement about questioning everything, even established assumptions, among your peers. That needed to be said. I guess I'm attempting to keep this discourse friendlier than others I've been embroiled in, so I think it's great for us non-academicians (is THAT a word? (I'm seeming less academic with every keystroke!)) to get an idea of the nature of your work, as well as the frustrations by which you are beset.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 2:14 PMHi Yoshi - OK, I'm not clued into Graham Hancock, thanks for educating me ;]. As a result of your post, I did what all lazy non-scholars do, I googled Graham Hancock and find he has a truly impressive number of publications and a large following.
My brief foray into this literature lead me to Amazon.com where I found several titles and reviews. There does seem to be an emphasis on 10,500 BCE as some sort of turning point, as you have already noted. Implied is that some sort of supernatural intervention at that time (as gleaned from the title "Supernatural meetings...") Am I correct in assuming Hancock's research seems to be geared toward documenting differences before and after this time and that some sort of "supernatural power" can "explain" changes in human behavior? If so, aliens is clearly a mis-characterization on my part because technically, aliens are of the natural world.
If that is the focus of his research, then I would argue that Occam's razor has left the building, since the basis for his explanation is that something outside of nature (a huge assumption that cannot be tested) is responsible for all the great developments in the human past. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize, it is true, I have not read any of his books.
Also, tangentially, (and this is a big issue for me), the Sphinx is not 12,000 years old, as Hancock is famous for asserting. It has the face of Khafre, a 4th Dynasty pharaoh who lived some 5400 years or so ago. The weathering on the Sphinx is not a good basis for dating the Sphinx since weathering rates on the Plateau have changed drastically in the past 100 years due to population growth in Cairo. Sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest ;] This kind of thing comes up when I lecture about Giza and I'm delighted to know more about the source of this issue.
Excerpt from Amazon.com review....
www.amazon.com/Supernatur.../ref=sr_1_2
>Could the "supernaturals" first depicted in the painted caves be the ancient teachers of mankind? Could it be that human evolution is not just the "meaningless" process that Darwin identified, but something more purposive and intelligent that we have barely begun to understand?
Thanks for the interesting counterpoint.
MM -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 7:37 AMThe major problem I have with the alien intervention stuff is it doesn’t give humans much credit. Good or bad humans are pretty amazing creatures, what people can accomplish when they put their minds to it never ceases to astound.
As for the supernatural’s depicted in the caves. Well I have a vivid imagination, but it is nothing compared to some artist friends. People have also been using hallucinogenic organics in one form or another in their shamanistic traditions for as long as we have been around. Then there is the unintended ingestion of mind-altering substances. And then there are the natural chemical imbalances that some people experience, that have influenced some pretty spectacular artworks.
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 9:35 AMThis shamanistic bent is a new thing for Hancock. His main assertion is that the global sea level rise of about 13,000 years ago is what displaced many a civilization. He claims that you can see evidence of these civilzations via underwater archaeology at Malta, at Yonaguni in Japan, and also off the coast of India. The most controversial pics are the Yonaguni ones, which really do look as if they were fashioned intelligently, yet now rest about 80 feet below the sea. Here's a quick link as an example:
www.grahamhancock.com/gallery...guni.htm
Intriguing, aye. Some geologists claim these angles could occur naturally, and others are fascinated arguing that they were, in fact, shaped by human (NOT alien) hands...
Personally, the general gist of the theory of civilizations living near the sea and getting displaced makes sense. So, I'm hoping that underwater archaeologists find some actual evidence...which will be hard, as we're talking immersion in the ocean for 13,000 years. Not much would survive except for stone, right? -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 12:27 PMAnd please note: The theory above does NOT involve aliens, crystals, harmonic convergences or giants. It doesn't make it valid, of course, but at least it deals with looking for hard evidence to prove it, rather than wish-fulfilling notions. I like that in a theory! ;-)
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 1:38 PMYou know I thought these( Yonaguni)were fascinating as well, But (You knew that was coming right) I just see fascinating geological formations.
People have attributed these formations to other causes as well. The devils causeway in Ireland, Kirkjubaerjarklaustur in Iceland, The turtleback formation in New Jersey, Schnurbusch Karst Window in Missouri, Cappadoccia formations in Turkey, The waffle rocks in Oklahoma and West Virginia then there are the thousands of odd formations on the Canadian Shield or out here in the Southwest.
Now this is just my opinion, but if I was on the island 10,000 years ago and then the glaciers melted and the water started rising I think my first instinct would be to go up hill. So I personally would look for evidence on dry land (that would be uphill from the water) for evidence of habitation in the same time period. I can’t find anything in all the stories about looking on the island for other evidence, lots of speculation but no digs. It seems some of theses claimants have made some decent money off of their theories, I think they could fund a bit of research.
I do find the Shamanistic stuff very interesting as the space between our ears is the most facinating of all. -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 2:05 PMIt is interesting, sea levels did actually rise 15,000-10,000 years ago due to the end of the Pleistocene and the melting of huge continental glaciers. This was a relatively slow event, though, not something that more or less instantaneously submerged all coastlines. Populations adjusted.
It is true that a lot of early archaeological unknowns are out there on the continental shelf.
But I'm not convinced those pictures on Hancock's website are, as C. points out, anything other than fascinating geological formations. Geology superficially mimics human culture, fracture planes in basalt can be remarkably straight and smooth. Out here in eastern OR, there are all kinds of table lands with exposed columnar basalt that looks for all the world like it was manufactured. But their are not, they are straight and smooth due to the crystalline structure of the basalt and how the lava fractured as it cooled. A lot of those underwater pictures look a lot like basalt tablets fractured in interesting ways. The human mind likes to see and create patterns, which makes it easy to "see" intentionality in geological formations. We had a similar conversation about the "pyramid" in Yugoslavia.
As to Hancock and aliens, I concede he's not about the aliens, but his "supernatural teachers..." are equivalently questionable. Further, since something "supernatural" exists outside of the natural world (by definition), and cannot be observed. As such, these entities cannot be used in a scientific explanation. Therefore, Hancock should abandon his attempt to mimic scientific process, since he's doing it wrong.
That said, I like a good speculation as much as anyone. Of course there are things about the universe we can't know or see. -
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Re: China finds 10,000 year old skull
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 5:03 PM<<Therefore, Hancock should abandon his attempt to mimic scientific process, since he's doing it wrong.>>
Yes, and Hancock has lost me here. Although I enjoyed "Fingerprints of the Gods", "Message of the Sphinx" and "Heaven's Mirror", I haven't read "Supernatural", so I can't really say and can only hope that he's not seeking to connect what can be validated through measurements by talking to "hyper intelligent, self-dribbling basketballs" (a Terence McKenna term describing the beings he met whilst on DMT). Though I do agree with C's contention that the most interesting space is indeed between our ears. There HAS been some fascinating ethno-botany done over the past decades, but I sure wouldn't go looking for advanced civilization founders using that particular mode.
As to sea level rise...right. I agree that it MUST have been gradual (with a few tsunamis, perhaps generated by large chunks of ice falling into the sea...c'mon, give me just a few tsunami's, okay?) ;-). But if there had already been a large city complex built somewhere, and the water was seen to be rising slowly but inexorably (okay, I just love that word), I wouldn't necessarily think that the inhabitants of coastal cities would tear down the largest basic structures, but rather simply abandon them to the sea while taking their belongings. So mayhap we can still find at least the basic ground plans laid out.
And MM, I also see your point about basalt cracking in straight formations, even at right angles. In fact, the detractors of the Yonaguni theory point to the basalt (I think) formations that form the cliffs the shore a few miles from the underwater formations and indeed...they are also quite rectangular in shape. The other question, of course, is...even if humans did modify the formations by shaping them a little, we still can't quite determine if they were a true civilization or just a bunch of hunter/gatherers with time and tools on their hands...
Nonetheless, I still hope that one day we will find harder evidence of that elusive civilization or civilizations. (A big dose of H.P. Lovecraft can do this to a person, so heed his words..."Do not call up that which ye cannot put downe!").
Thank you two again for not turning this into a mudslinging contest! I love a good civil discourse. After all, we've all got a lot to learn. And archaeology fascinates me too! A time machine would be easier (as long as we don't try to kill our grandpa's and thus cease to exist ourselves), but I truly appreciate you folks who do all the painstaking work without one, yet create the next best thing through all your efforts. I took a class in basic archaeology at UCSB and was frankly put off by all the gridding and sifting and cataloguing. But I understand that this is exactly what is required in order to properly and faithfully document the contents of an ancient site. And it sounds like a pain in the ass unless you are completely dedicated to your field. So again, when you react to theories with no hard evidence to back them, I feel your frustration.
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